Culture and Communities Committee – 30 January 2018 (Tue, 30th Jan 2018 - 10:00 am) 

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[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:05:01]

I see the
webcams on so nuts 10 o'clock
so welcome everyone and if I could
start with our system
notification that they were being webcast broadcast live on them
so everybody can see on the way that some of you are not paying any attention
Air and capable of repeated viewing so

Item 1.1 - Order of business

i'm that also is activated by the mix so remember a switch them on and off and also if I can remind you that after an hour will harbour 15 minute bleak
and so I will carry on meeting
and that takes us on to the order of business so we have a slight change

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:05:53]

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:05:54]

computer so the site changes the computers intimated that it wishes to consider item main point 1 Tourism in Edinburgh for the item 3 as Councillor Marriott is in attendance for a special interest

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:06:07]

and whilst I welcome Councillor Mowat and as this is in response to

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:06:14]

your motion can invite you to see if you are the guest actor grasp

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:06:15]

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:06:16]

thank you

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:06:19]

we have got declarations of interests first of all on just a second declaration of interest

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 0:06:25]

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 0:06:27]

on Item 9 went to the Medibank update declaring interests as a director
of Edinburgh Leisure a non-financial

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 0:06:35]

snap

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:06:44]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:06:46]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:06:47]

okay item freeze requires us to rethink kale just in case all declared a non-pecuniary interest as a member of Edinburgh Leisure

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:06:55]

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:06:56]

it takes this item 3 which is requests for Deputations though no deputation requests which takes us on
to Item main point 1 tourism in aid
so what
thank you
I don't know whether this is because this is a new administration
I was a bit disappointed I have to start by saying that normally when I've submitted motions to full Council and they've been remitted to Committee that the process that has been followed is that there's been a discussion with the Council about the content of the report
and when this would be coming to committee and there has been no discussion with me about whether the reports have addressed the motion that I put forward so unfortunately having missed that stage out of

[Cllr Joanna Mowat (Conservative) - 0:07:41]

the process and the unusual way that this has been handled in that the motion that I put forward has been split into
sort of between two reports
I have some slightly on-site Well actually I am satisfied with the process and unfortunately the report that I think in front of you today doesn't really address what I was getting at in the motion
9 point won this one there's a report has been presented and developed

Item 9.1 - Tourism in Edinburgh - report by the Executive Director of Place

and says eat acts tourism strategy is going to be the answer to all our
to all our problems well I tax tourism strategy with the best in the world has not been and is not currently a solution to the problems and is not addressing all those groups that whose voices are becoming
ever louder in their concerns about the impact of tourism in the city now
I appreciate that there has been a long strategy that has been dealt up at government level and accounts level to encourage tourism and bring visitors to the city and despite what some people might think I am not some Crabbet old crone he says I don't want visitors here I love this city I think it is one of the most beautiful cities in the world I think it is the best city in the world and actually quite generous and I want people to visit it and I want people to share it but if we don't manage the visitors where we have very specific peaks and we have peaks that then create marvels you know if if it wasn't busy during the Festival the Festival would not be what it is however if we are to continue that for this to be a great place to come and visit we have to be an I do think is are responsible as a city can write responsibility as a City Council saying how do we manage this so that we can preserve what is so special about this city a living city centre with a secure residential population where one does happen every August but we don't allow one activity to drive the other activity here it's really tricky other cities in the report I think the one bit we start with we say our visitor ratios three-point one to one that hang on is that looking are peak or is that looking at a yearly average that's a really important statistic to assess the impact on the communities nowhere to mention how we're going to pull in the residential populations how we're going to listen to their concerns how we're going to meet their concerns so I have to say I don't think this is a particularly satisfactory report and I don't think it's going to deliver the answers I was very specific in what I asked for which was a working group which brought all the parties together because I think you need to start by having a forum in which it is noticeable I tag had a very big meeting just off just after I put my motion down I know that motion was discussed by ETAG a lot of people rang up and said we got to see you at the tag meeting tomorrow surely because we're discussing this I tax never going near me
so I don't think relying on ETAG just to develop this is going to deliver what we need and I really hope that the Committee today can go back and look at my motion again which I ask for a working group to come together to bring those parties together and at the very least say that would be valuable to do that because at the moment we've got a community that's really really fragile here and I am really concerned that we may miss lose them kill the goose that lays the golden egg in this city because we'll just people say it's unpleasant to come so I don't want to come back we know a lot of people return we know we have this incredible Arts Festival and I do support that I also think we have to be much smarter about what's basis we allow to allow the creative creativity to give free rein to itself rather than spending what we do every year in which bit of George Street is going to be open you know that because of what we should be moving to his saying here on three year basis as these bit these bits of public space are going to be managed by x y or z this is what's going to happen with this is what's roads going to be closed and then they can go and programme that and have that space as creative space we know what's happening and we can address the bits around the edges and which caused real concerns residents but we're all trying to do too much with too few resources at the moment and we need to put a proper plan in place and just saying we're going to go back to attack and develop a new strategy I didn't think either addresses the terms of my motion or gives the city what it needs IQ

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:12:19]

we feel no further contributions
notwithstanding

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 0:12:25]

I have to say I probably would support pretty much virtually everything that Councillor Brett has just said having read the report was a little disappointed by some of the AGM responses within it specially impact or residents implication within the report is that the only reason why we have our museums are often the only reason why have anything is because of tourism that's not I think really the reality of the situation and is not great justification for what are actually supposed to be doing and who we actually are I am deeply concerned about the impact we have had a lot of response my resident St Edinburgh is full and there we have a response from that from the tourism side saying No it's not if it isn't then why two reasons for that is with that something were not addressing properly you know there's obviously a miscommunication somewhere and were not addressing it properly and I think you know the idea of having a working group that people can actually get involved and would be a good idea because we actually need to discover why residents feel the city is full

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:13:24]

when a father of income

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 0:13:25]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:13:26]

all would like to introduce the report

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:13:30]

this was our next well

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:13:32]

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:13:32]

I was wondering whether it questions to Councillor or whether you want me to introduce the report before them a more wide-ranging discussion and from in your hands really I think we do it

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:13:44]

thanks Convener and my colleague Jim Galloway on on my left is is here has also been involved in the drafting of report that the first thing I wanted to say it is too
I suppose very much acknowledge the issue that Councillor Moat's raised in terms of the complexity of this issue you have two reports on this agenda today one about tourism in general
which was trying to be in and I'm sorry if it's not unfulfilled expectations are if the process hasn't worked as it should have done Councillor most motion
but also you have a report which we specifically as officers wanted to bring to you where we tried to look at what happened in the summer of last year from a point of view of Transportation from public safety and so on and obviously of discourse that later on the agenda so that those are two separate reports at the next Transport and Environment Committee I think we have the public spaces protocol report which my colleague Anna Aramon has worked on unfortunate Anna come here today because shoot she's poorly and there are a number of other reports that kind of work in this space so I suppose the first things to acknowledge that both this Committee and Housing an economy Committee which last meeting discussed the economic Development Strategy for the City of which of course tourism is important part and transport and environment committee all have a kind of Locus if I can put it that way in this important issue and one that may or may not add add grist to the
the issue about
some kind of working group because clearly this is an issue that that crosses a number of different Committees obviously what whether you want to do that it is is obviously a matter for Members in terms of this specific report what we tried to do really in this report and the one on festivals in but is if you like gives an overview of where we are it wasn't an attempt by officers to try and completely map every single aspect of festival life is tourism impact in the city as a whole it was an attempt to give an overview on some key issues object just a brief word if I can on on eat out clearly in this Council has complete legitimacy to take whatever actions it wants on matters of public concern within our responsibility
as I understand it you might know more than me I get in return is an action group
has been established for some years as a partnership between the Council Scottish Enterprise and the industry itself indeed is an industry led body
it operates through a number of fora and function so it has a major conference which I think from memory it actually happening this is this week
there is a kind of strategy implementation group which the Chief Executive of the Council shares so it is a very clear attempt to work in partnership between public bodies and the industry itself and I think the message whether through Councillor Mowat promotion through wider press coverage or other issues is very much got across the whilst tourism is extremely important from an economic perspective and we try and set that out then the city has to look at tourism in around in terms of impact on residents and on terms of a wider sustainable development agenda and all I would say is is clearly as it were Members have whatever agency you want to set up groups but to continue to work in partnership is an important part of this agenda to develop as it were independent actions separate from business and think is something that that Members might just want to think about capitalist but not to say that as it were I tag is the only body through which these issues can move forward that's not the case the Council concluded do what it wants but I think working in partnership is extremely important other than that convenient just just to say as I said to repeat myself really that we we've not tried in this report to sow every aspect of tourism activity every aspect of tourism impact we simply tried to kind of give an overview
of where we are and to acknowledge that on a number of these policy agendas there are alive and active debate so Members will be aware that the Scottish Government's expert panel on the shared economy reported yesterday
I'm sure some members will have already seen some of those recommendations which goes to the heart of those paragraphs that three pint 20 around short-term letting which have been an issue either from Members on this Committee but clearly also members on housing an economy that report was on issued yesterday we need to get hold of that and I'm sure there will be both political debate unofficial debate about that and this is a very live dynamic agenda and it's possible for us to go we should do this this and this whilst a lot of these debates are taking place but it was an opportunity to try and stimulate discussion and then for Members to determine how you want to take this agenda forward that's helpful convenience

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:18:48]

councillor

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 0:18:57]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:18:59]

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 0:18:59]

it's it's two things really and one is that the report before us on basis a lot of its information on the Edinburgh People's Survey and that makes it quite clear that
80 2 percent of city centre residents agree that the festival's make the city a better place to live there is also information about the percentage of Edinburgh residents that themselves partake of these activities so I I I don't really accept that there has been no engagement with city centre residents or the wider city residents
and it's also just to express my concern somewhat that if
there was a reference to you know that the paper said Edinburgh's fall well I recall not too long ago the papers were telling us that Britain was full and we needed to close we needed to close our gates to the floods of immigration I think we can see where that's gotten us and potentially with a very negative impact on our tourists section section and our arts and culture offerings
because of it so I would I would say Let's look look at the
surveys that are underpinning this report rather than looking you know to make policy based on
what are admittedly were some negative headlines that were we saw last summer

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:20:31]

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 0:20:32]

20 0 Councillor thank you

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 0:20:34]

I just take a moment to think about it because I'm still a little bit confused about where we are with these reports and so one when the comments I was going to make voice that I was sort of expecting that you know the motion that that counts the most put forward and the report that we've got an emphasis on settees would be part and parcel of the same piece of work and I think
I'm still a little bit confused about how we're handling this as a Committee which so I would just take a moment to think that what to say because I feel that you know
I am not sure that I agree actually they are about the survey being a completely and accurate representation of m residents experience of the festivals and of tourism and so I am not totally should agree with all those comments but
I think we do need to look at working-group but I think that we need to look at what research underpins our decisions in our policy making and I think that would be nice to look at both these reports together and I'm struggling a little bit to think how best to
take this forward today because I think perhaps what Jo's looking for is for us to end recommendations in that report but we haven't done that in advance and I'm not sure what the best processes to do that

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:21:45]

you are absolutely right that the two reports should be taken together alone on the same subject under saw your vision the ideas that we would be taken together I think
things have changed slightly in the headline doesn't look that cancer so it doesn't feel it addresses the terms of her
a motion so therefore we are now working Well we're going to do about that but we have a couple other contributions and we can discuss their snarl will work out where we're going to do to Councillor Campbell

[Cllr Ian Campbell (Scottish National Party) - 0:22:14]

[Cllr Ian Campbell (Scottish National Party) - 0:22:16]

yes Councillor Mo I've just been looking at your resolution that you brought to Council and basically you see the council therefore calls for a report within two cycles exploring how we can work transparently and accountably with partners to include festivals businesses residents police relevant functions in a real iOS of the Council to improve visitor and resident experience and address the challenges to ensure that the city can offer a positive experience for visitors and residents I don't see anything there but talks about our work group and I find it quite strange that you will come to the complaining that this report which is exactly what you've asked for you there's nothing in here about what a group of our work groups needed then that has to go through a procedure
so I
am asked to him as if it has to go work Gruber has to go through proper procedure and I believe the
the Chair and that the officers have have actually fulfilled that the remit of this and of this motion by the report is here today

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:23:36]

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 0:23:38]

but the report doesn't actually commit any sort of specific action and
the report as well
as sort of gruesome Martin anecdotal evidence being certainly at least in terms of my ward as well which obviously is not city centre but sort of Borges that you've got a lot of anecdotal evidence suggesting that the city is quite overwhelmed even in our partners we get further out of the city and
I mean obviously the question was 0 does the Festival contribute towards I wonder of Latin risen all that and of course people the vast majority think that it does but if you take it to another question when you think about how it affects services and MOT not I mean other people might feel it's not working quite as well or other parts of the City certainly in summer timer a little bit more neglected

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:24:19]

consistent

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 0:24:23]

so question for for Paul rarely eat Act develops the City Tourism Strategy and is industry lad out what concerns me about it is that residents don't seem to have much say in EET Act it could you come back on that did do residents have a method by which they can have a say in the City Tourism Strategy

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:24:46]

I am not entirely sure of the gym can help me I don't think from memory that for example community councils are represented directly on Eta gigaclear for the reason you say which is it's an industry body but clearly the Council
our job as a Councillors to
represent residents is involved in each ag but I think if we wanted for example as a Council service to search if if we wanted ETAG to remain as the kind of primary body for developing tourism strategy in the city which I think does make sense and if we wanted to suggest for example a series of workshops where they wish with Community Councils or with other stakeholder bodies city centre residents groups whatever it might be in a George Street Association whatever them then we can suggest that at any time if we don't feel that engagement is rich enough then either officers or Members involved Anita can suggest that at any time

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 0:25:42]

I just going back on that then I think it would be a good idea particularly as the report says that their next conference is going to be on managing success and a huge element of that must be how successes affecting residents so I really do think we should be on ETAG wishing for more residents' involvement and more resident consultation

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:26:03]

consultation

[Cllr Karen Doran (Labour) - 0:26:05]

[Cllr Karen Doran (Labour) - 0:26:07]

thank you Convener I mean
I welcome both reports but I
have to say we 3 she declared an interest Councillor Miller Moeen myself for city centre counsellors and although there are obviously there's lots of statistics this is a six week or of our residents and the city centre having difficulties and problems
are not really having an avenue in which to raise these an end saw anything we can do as a Council to give them a voice
as a city we all welcome very much the festival's tourism I don't think there's anyone in the council that wouldn't welcome such a wonderful thing in a city that we have to realise a new city centre there's 19 thousand residents and yes some of them are being affected and effective quite badly in that we have waste not only by the festival's the tourism but also that the buildings are community so a collapsing through Airbnb is an and flights etc so so we have to address the concerns of the residents I think that's the whole point of this are welcomed these reports that the Transport and economy all these support hopefully will one day come together and we know we're going forward but in the meantime we need to seriously look at how it our residents getting a voice

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:27:24]

it was also

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 0:27:27]

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 0:27:28]

I think for me passing a very telling pass this report is the measure of success which actually states and HRA continues to be a top destination for visitors and achieves a balance of managed growth in tourism which does not impact adversely on the quality of life for residents I think of that space for a measure of success there was a problem because it hasn't actually addressed that pot

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:27:53]

it was normal contributions
if you want to come back in Council Mowat I'm actually seeing a direction of travel travel so it may be helpful if I see them nicely played happy with the idea of a working group and a because I do think that the
the question is that is is addressed in the reports that what's missing is any kind of constructive way forward on the basis of that and a so the acknowledgement in the report and indeed the basis for it is the residents views be are represented in any strategies that we have going forward and dared to make sure that I think it's justifiable that would have an elected member
working group which would be able to improve that dynamic
into the strategies as we go forward so I would certainly be happy to propose that
we would have cover a report that would draw up and that would come forward to the March Committee
and there if we put our motion and no
consultation

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 0:29:03]

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 0:29:04]

sorry I just wanted to clarify big because a working group was requested in the original motion would that replace on recommendation 1 comma 1 percent for the Council and the tag work together to develop and produce a new tourism strategy by 20 20 is that going to be the working group will be working alongside that superseding that or

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:29:26]

how do you envision it working I would imagine that an addendum and it

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:29:29]

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 0:29:29]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:29:30]

would be an addition and that would be the method by which the Council would work with the attack

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:29:34]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:29:34]

other than direct representation of course

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:29:37]

if I may Convener from one of the recommendations just perhaps reiterate what so before the last one is about refer the report to Housing and economy Committee if Members are minded I assure tried to make about this being a matter for this Committee and for housing economy and actually for transport and environment may be a few and your fellow Conveners my get together and suggested that some kind of joined up working group across those three Committees because then certainly from office in my view we can bring those things together so my almost be a kind of
an expansion of that 1 point 1 point 5
around not just referring it to another Committee but agreed to Serpa if that's what Members are minded to do a joint working group across those three Committees that that maybe if that's helpful convenient

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 0:30:26]

yes reflecting what policing there I think that would be really helpful because I'm a little bit concerned about defines the report taking an economy and are not actually looking after this as she here I think though that really this committee is the owner of this issue I am saying working group and involving the Members of the other Committees that relevant would be really helpful

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:30:48]

so I think we would have to pay an addendum
to that that would call for this to be brought forward by officers and I will address the structure of it and the membership and the that come to the march
a Committee but in the meantime of course it would go for information to the economy and A and therefore will take that into account when the report comes forward in March
agreed
did you want to add anything

[Cllr Joanna Mowat (Conservative) - 0:31:19]

[Cllr Joanna Mowat (Conservative) - 0:31:21]

I think that's a helpful way forward and I must say that again maybe it's because when the new administration we have lots of new members
one thing I was taken aback by some of the comments that were made by some of the Committee members
I was very clear that this was matter forward looking and I didn't want to be prescriptive to bind the Committee and I think working group is very helpful I would say that it hasn't been my experience previously that just because something is
mentioned in a report it's not about directly asking and getting its about giving Committee direction of travel about how the best way to fulfil it I think that will be helpful to to widen the voices because I'm very concerned that we're saying that an industry led body which is is great it's good that we have an industry-led body we have one member whose contributing to that from a particular path Council and gyms he sits on attack for us is it not
necessarily liaising with community or the time so it is quite difficult for external bodies to get that transparency and I do think
I'm sure you bring the remit of that working group back I think it would be really helpful to look at about how we can provide a use that to provide some sort of certainty for the different groups different organisations in the city to get a better frameworks I think my senses there are struggling at the moment we're reinventing the wheel every year and we want to be able to direct resources into other things rather than what's going on George Street
every every year takes a huge amount of officer time and I think there is a role in that time to do that
it's so bitty this that actually that cross party working and how that looks across would be really really helpful so I won't prescribe what you need to do but I'm happy to feed him with that five Members thank you

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:33:16]

just earn them thanks to everybody for their contributions was served are
a challenge to draw the SA report together or take everything on board and said I would agree and there are a number of service areas and also a Committee interests The across a number of remarks unless
and certainly take the the the m comments and feedback back to eat I grew up anything with us on Friday at the convention I would say that do them no eat like is a partnership and I do a invades A and drawing people from around the Council
bought a completely in looking at and empirical and anecdotal evidence has identified it to me and to if people have been pleasing with any time that there needs to be more evidence gatherers fully understood in terms of the impact and the benefits of tourism within the city in order to
progress
but with a strategy that sits alongside the economy strategy and the culture here plan as Oswell there and unearned riches that violence
saw averages there thank you for all your comments

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 0:34:46]

I yet just making sure we did discuss some easing our position on I tag to push for greater resident involvement just make it can we put in the recommendations as well

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:35:02]

1 to

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:35:05]

i'd like a four-point 1

Item 4.1 - Previous Minute of 14 November 2017

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:35:07]

so for appointment as a member of the culture and Communities Committee of the 14th of november 20 17 and this has been submitted

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:35:15]

for approval as a credit record agreed

Item 4.2 - Previous Minute of 5 December 2017

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:35:16]

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:35:19]

ITEM four-pointer is the minute of the additional meeting on the 5th December and this has also been submitted for approval as a correct record

Item 5.1 - Culture and Communities Committee Key Decisions Forward Plan

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:35:26]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:35:27]

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:35:30]

that teaches Item 5 point 1 which is a Committee's Key decision forward plan covering the period to the end of June 22

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:35:36]

noting that it

Item 5.2 - Rolling Actions Log

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:35:40]

ITEM 5 point to is the Committee's rolling action log for January 20 18

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:35:46]

so
without it were asked to agree to close items 2 and 4 and otherwise were noting at any outstanding
ongoing actions as agreed

Item 6.1 - Business Bulletin

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:36:02]

6 point 1 is the Committee's business built in for January 20 80

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:36:06]

particularly interesting when I thought
Councillor

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 0:36:13]

can we just make thanks as well to the individuals who put this together because as we have stated previously this is extremely useful and it is very good to actually see what is available

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:36:23]

so I think it's really good and it's a really good way of bringing a lot of thanks to the attention of the Committee would be quite often on us to have in as items on the agenda and produced four reports for its also very interesting we at presenting the information so absolutely

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 0:36:41]

I was actually wondering is is it being distributed more widely to 2 NO to city residents council employees because it's is really at an interesting read

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:36:56]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:36:56]

I thought had occurred to me as well
I really do dystopia is effectively as an online magazine

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:37:04]

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:37:05]

prosecution song and come back to you on that one to one or two colleagues in the gallery if that's OK
Case Officer for me

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:37:12]

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 0:37:13]

not to be slightly negative but there is one aspect in this that some isn't cover which is sport arts writers we still have no support so it would be nice to see what's actually happening with our sport
I have actually

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:37:27]

taken this up and we are going to organise our briefing and a return to bring us up to speed on the whole sport aspect of the remit of this committee

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:37:40]

happy note
rooted

Item 7.1 - Ross Bandstand– presentation by the Ross Development Trust

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:37:44]

OK to sustain him seven point 1 which is a presentation on the Ross Bandstand

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:37:51]

OK we have them
and Neil and the Dallas no going to come down and
gives a prosecution
she said

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:38:01]

perhaps if intercept brief word while I'm colleagues assessing nothing I'm certainly from amongst officers and colleagues from the Ross Development Trust week we thought this was a project that Members will have read about in the press and will have been discussing but actually a briefing on where we were with the project and kind of how we're taking things forward would would be useful hence the idea of the presentation here today
Good Morning ladies and gentlemen
Leader Councillor sex very much for giving us the opportunity to come along and update you this morning on the workings of the Ross Development Trust and my name is Andy neoma Trustee
on the board of the Ross Development Trust and my colleague here David Ellis is the managing Director
and Executive person so running on a daily basis all of the projects
we have a short presentation will be very happy to answer any questions and thereafter and the bulk of the presentational burden them by David who will take over a second and to the section on where we are now
is the one that I will cover as a trustee David
likes either in their thanks for giving us the opportunity to present to this morning third start just by talking a little bit about who we are what our aims on just a little bit on the work that we've done today so here is the who are the most development trusts Weir are a Scottish registered charity we've been registered since September of 20 16 and our aim quite simply is to improve the offering of West Princes Street Gardens with the focus being a replacement of the current Ross Theatre we currently have a development agreement in place with the Council it was approved AGM in June of 20 16 m to allow us to carry out those planned improvements
a little bit on the work that we've done today probably our most notable piece of work and that you may have seen in the gardens actually was in the Scotsman this morning about the work that we're doing to restore the Ross fountain and obviously a fantastic
part of the city of something that's been in situ in Westminster because for the past hundred 45 years that the project to restore that involve dismantling the fountain all One Hundred and 20 two pieces of it and taking it down to our workshop though in Wigan and repairing cleaning and repainting the individual pieces and the image on the screen at A C was released this morning in the press and that's an indication of what we hope is going to look like when it returns what it will look like when returns and concurrently to the work that's going on actually repairing the fountain itself we've done a huge amount of work on sites to improve the foundations and to install 20 first century pump pumping system and to make sure that when it does come back in his rebuilt that it will be able to
work fully operational in situ for were told at least the next 100 years so
that's quite an exciting thing and you should actually see the phone to start to become back at the end of February will be rebuilt from then and hoping they'll be completed by mid June AGM and fully operational from from that points or
so where it was done in the fountain we also last year ran an international design competition to look at and specifically the replacement for the Ross the Ross Theatre we launched this competition to the international market but because we felt well oedran being a fantastic city in this being one of our
key most important saves was definitely of merit to attract the best architectural means the world had to offer so we launched that and we were blown away by the response that we got we had a hundred and 25 submissions from architects all over the world the difficulty we have there was sort of knowing that down to a shortlist still eventually whittled down to two seven entries there were given a period of about 12 weeks to come up with a new concept for not only the New Theatre but also for a sort of holistic vision of how the new garden space with Look we put them on display at the City Art Centre and we had a huge response from the general public coming down to have a look at that and it was great to could only speak to people and see the interest that
citizens and tourists were taking in that in the future of the city
run that competition that culminated in the winning design and which was as I'm sure you've seen the American firm of why partnered with local and wheat-based Architects grass and fantastic combination if there are big international architect but also the sort of local knowledge that's really key to such an important site within the city
and
that was the winning design that on the day we are notes the work
that went over competition we had an online reach of up to 96 million people and the ability to students that was published in over a thousand articles in countries all over the world so there is a huge and
excitement about their by this announcement was actually probably
one of the few times where a competition winner has been not only a public favourite but also
for the jury a technical panel was all the way through everyone seems to agree this really was and the best solution that we had there so
that's what it takes us to where we are now and that is that we've got a winning design chosen we've got partner and when we announced that where we started with our AGM fundraising effort which is obviously key to this project we still have a huge amount of money to raise in those early conversations with potential donors led to a few am reoccurring questions that we are now in a position where we need to answer a colleague is going to talk a little bit about that
as you can imagine just am having got all the excitement of the winning concept and that gave us the opportunity to take something and to potential donors
and remind the group offices are a project but have 25 million pounds in total and the idea is that this is all raised through private donations and am
through other trusts and grants so we had now had something we could take an and have initial conversations with
they responded to the project and the concept was very positive
but one thing that did crop up which we hadn't fully expected and I guess perhaps you should have thought of it before
we have a Development Agreement which goes as far as fundraising and building
but there's nothing which goes beyond that
the question that was asked was How am how can we be reassured that if we build something it doesn't gradually through under investment and fall into disrepair and the current Bandstand as it looks quite sad in the middle of the gardens at the moment is a kind of a testament to what can happen if if you not properly
funded and maintaining going forward
at that point because we didn't have any of those answers and the trustees decided that the best thing to do would be to
suspend fundraising until we had the answers to those questions
we haven't taken any further the development work with the and with the architects because this am hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of investment needs to go into that which until we until we know we've got am something that we can present to donors and we were not taking that conversation forward and and we are now in conversation with
different parts of the Council on how we might be able to give those donors that sought reassurance whilst maintaining all of the public access and benefits of the park currently offers
if yes and I just touch on there there is a couple of issues have been raised by donors which is quite understandable am looking for assurance that if their contribution a large sum of money that will be looked after in a real legacy will be a legacy for them here interest-free gardens and we are working very closely as Andy mentioned here with our colleagues in the Council to
look at are sustainability model that works not only to give the donor's assurance but has also best placed for this
special site within the city so
when we agree 0 come up with the best recommended solution that will form a key part of our business case and that will be submitted to the Finance and Resources Committee for their meeting in March and if we can get a positive response the area and that is approved that should give us on our board the confidence to
take this forward and to restart a fundraising campaign and also to continue that and designed development process because somebody mentioned there we have at the moment are winning competition designed but we don't have a final designs there is a huge amount of work to do to take that through private and public consultation is to really make sure that what we end up putting in places is really the best solution for Manchester
any representations on any questions which related to

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:46:54]

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 0:46:57]

thanks very much and it's great to hear from years moaning thank you very much for coming in and telling us how this m obviously it's very welcome that we have them philanthropists in the city who are willing to work on improving the facilities imprinted City guidance and really welcome that very happy to see that and supportive of the project them but I would be interested to know when you are talking about the stability of them the bandstand and the facilities what was included in the competition and what was included an architect's proposal that m would ensure that is affordable to maintain it and think I share your concerns about
perhaps seeing a Gwent disrepair efforts and built as proposed we would like to make sure that it is something which is a legacy for the city and its maintainable so how was that handled and new condition
the
that there wasn't anything specific in Nam in the competition brief we said you know this has to be
a part of that part of the brief wasn't that is in it needs to look after itself
obviously it has to be built to appropriate standards and therefore able to be looked after there's nothing in the concepts which are
difficult it's really more a case of the financial side of things which use
if you if you're putting technically equipment into a performance space and you need to be planning at least every 10 years to upgrading all the technical stuff because that's just you know when it when he gets out of date and thinking about sound and lighting in that sort of thing
but there's nothing inherent in the design which requires greater maintenance it's just
a recognition that the term the Council priorities on where its findings by RPI have been directed to him in other areas and quite a lot of
the sort of structures within the gardens of
just not been able to attract any funding

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:49:10]

whilst it just briefly too unfit for Members raciones has spoken to back up what Andean David of said and what I think it was David that said that working with them a range of officers remember this project involves people in finance and property and Parks in culture and it's quite interesting project from that point of view because this is about just one part of the city but there must be about seven or eight different professional dispose planning of course remember when we moved into it the beer
a major planning application to be determined and so on
public safety so actually what we've tried to do his corral a kind of all officers together to work in a single grouping with the Trust to try and address these issues and the idea was following any discussion or questions from Members this morning as the slide says there is that what we will look to take to Finance and Resources
is Amazon OBC though which has outline business case is probably closer to a full business case for early which sets out everything from how to address those issues of future maintenance and sustainability to how to deal with governance to how to deal with programming and and so on which are all the issues as Andy rightly says that donors wants to see so that that was the idea to address that holistically
for Finance and Resources Committee to sign off and then hopefully get agreement on that and move forward such as opposed to reassure Members that what we trying to do is make sure the offices right across
the Council are working with the Trust in a unified way actually to get to March Finance and Resources still a lot of work to be done in a pretty sure order but they were pretty confident working together we can try to address those issues and then to get them the ad the project moving the fundraising and the planning I suppose that that thing to say
this is always view that you announcer won in competition in the public think that fantastic has can it can start on site tomorrow while a planning application is going to take some time and the design development process is going to take some time and the fundraising is going to take some time so that this is actually a you know a process that we're just at the beginning of reward was perhaps the best thing says that the beginning at the end of the beginning what we're now looking is moved to the next stage of really making it happen
is a lot of excitement
as
and that doesn't mean that some negative that were under the beginning but that really is the introduction and now we move on to the real hard work in the next stage

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:51:35]

as well

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 0:51:36]

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 0:51:39]

I think I am so that's quite interesting that you think that there any business case is being developed and that is going to finance I wonder if it should come here Festival and anger to finance because I think it would be it is something which I can imagine that the Committee Members here would be interested to see what is there
what are the cultural proposals around it and that finance would look at the Finance element of it is that something which of those would agree to

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:52:03]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:52:04]

often depend on the timings as a good idea
was of concern to us to make progress and Burton are turning areas for the beleaguered good idea
is that for the record the re-profiling so as baffling

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:52:21]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 0:52:22]

just gives us a week less convenient
we are silent area as I was on the judging panel so and it was only days after becoming Convener so it was one of the first things I did and
it is there was a real it was a very onerous task and it was taken very seriously but some of the things you are talking about will definitely in the consideration when we were looking at the different designs I mean sustainability was definitely a factor
but also you know are very much aware that these were set up and had to remain pleasure gardens and there you can see from the design of the intent is to combine both the that the tranquillity in their ability to warrant a true with also
the evolution of the Ross-Brand style so anyway so I have not had any particularly adverse reactions to the choice
may have been all right
anyway so thank you for that and
thank you and enjoy it

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 0:53:28]

it takes us on to Executive decisions the first of which is Item 8 point 1 managing our Festival City report and scorecard

Item 8.1 Managing Our Festival City – Report and Scorecard – report by the Executive Director of Place

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 0:53:39]

thanks Convener am as asylum slightly at a disadvantage because my colleague who many Members will know Anna Harryman
that
is is oft six inches too much of the work in drawing this together but I'll I'll I'll do my best if that's OK I'm Convener as I said before this report really is should be read and properly discussed in conjunction with the earlier debate you had around that the wider tourism issue in the city clearly this report doesn't deal with tourism in general and but it deals with we really I suppose the quite specific question which is over the course of of last summer I can put it this way in very simple terms at how did we do how did we do as a city and how did we do as a Council and wit we've tried to look at that from all angles it may Members might think there are some angles missing but we've tried to look at it I suppose perhaps the most obvious angle missing is from the content from the culture itself and we've not really tried to as it works to form some sort of judgement on it was the content of the festival good bad or indifferent we've really looked at the wider issues as Councillor Doran said around liveability for residents
the issue is perhaps more directly in our concern issues like transportation and so on
I have to say and issue a very particular concern for it for me in the job I do the pedestrian experience on the streets in the system the again as Councillor Doran will know there are groups that living streets raise on her on a pretty regular basis
perhaps for the first time in paragraph 3 20 as Members will be aware is headed reassurance but really a security and public safety and Members will be aware for the first time we were the House for what are called the national barrier assets an additional barriers to deal with
the particular threat of imposed to I'm cities like ours and events like these at the moment in these times
thinking about inclusion and then just trying to kind of come up with an approach and with this honour is worked with different departments within the Council but also with festivals Edinburgh and Julianne Moore from from festivals Edinburgh's is is here today
my personal view is that we work there are some significant areas here which are positive
so one of the services I look after the waste and cleansing service actually I think did significantly better
in the City Centre vertically and more broadly across the city because one of the issues for us is we don't divert resources into the City Centre for example during August at the expense of the rest of the city this is
about balance as a whole but actually for example and some of these measures aren't perfect but for example and complaints around things like waste and cleansing was significant reduced last year compared to the year before
there are other areas as this as a props hinted at where I think the pedestrian experience whilst it's quite harder to judge from an objective measure are still think there is a way to go and ASBOs in this report we were trying to encourage debate amongst members about how we might take some of that forward in the future so for example the pedestrian experience and particularly that some of those issues where there are occasionally overcrowding well might not give us that the lesson sketchy it should we expand some of those areas a bit but of course that has a corresponding increase
in other implications if you want it for example to expand the amount of space open to the fringe in front of this building that would be a good thing to do in terms of releasing pressure but it may have implications for other street Coburn Street would would be a good example for example Hunter Square so when we tried to sort of as it were not only learn lessons from last year and come to some kind of view on how we did but also indicate some lessons and pointers for the future and some of the things and we might do we do work should reassure Members very closely with partners across the city are managing the Festival as a whole most obviously the blue light services so the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service Scottish ambulance service and police Scotland we do work very closely with transportation providers obviously particularly those closest to us from Edinburgh trams and Lothian buses and we've tried to kind of collate the views of those organisations in a given a degree of judgement in this report on how we've done I think there are always
areas for improvement but on the whole I think this presents a positive image of how the
the city deals with the kind of influx as Johnny Marr called it a earlier on and there are some very specific issues finally Convener and again an Councillors M Dorner Miller will be aware of this in parts of the city centre's was the grass market is a pretty good example where we have a long-standing debate
from residents about noise and about disruption and as the report sets out we've tried our very best through generally voluntary codes round issues like amplification noise the amount of time we allow in the day the kind of curfew times we bring down which I think on the whole is getting that balance right but I am aware that as a continuing dialogue between residents Councillors
and organisations about this site that I hope this presents this isn't really trying to present
this is a as a raging success for SACRE a terrible failure I think there are areas for improvement which we continue to learn from but on the whole Convener think this presents an Acura and on the whole improving picture of how we deal with them the summer festivals thanks

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 0:59:34]

thank you and yeah I welcome the report I think it's m it started off innovative action and it's really helpful to bring together all this information in one place and Anna is ashamed that she is not here today I'm sorry to hear that she's unwell she's done some fantastic work and
year of worked closely with her over the first few months while I've been imposed m
I was a bit concerned that though I think that it needs to be strengthened a few that those areas in the report where it perhaps needs to go a bit further and
to talk a bit more about the impact of the difference M things which are observed in I think that it would be helpful to them go into the noise issue a little bit further invite M and S Powles touched on the Grassmarket being a touch pointing area which I know caramel Norber as well but I think that those other areas of the city centre which suffer from
a conflict between the the performances that happen outdoors and the resident population and the noise that's inherent in that situation and socially like to see us going further on that area in and I think
although I recognise that there are the figures that are quoted in terms of things like Weaste R M seeming to improve I think that there are there are perhaps other measures that we should be using an arrangement as she's like that so I am aware of from speaking to residents in the city centre and in other words that the experience has not improved even though those figures of the number of complaints have gone down and I think it's about what were choosing to use as our metrics so I think that there is some further work there I would quite like to take this as a starting point
and that's why I've put down an amendment for today but my my general thrust of it is that I would like to see this
it is a great start but just improver and and move forward from here

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:01:33]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:01:34]

so I should have said Yellen amendment and the site presumably as you move it
okay Council dot

[Cllr Karen Doran (Labour) - 1:01:44]

I certainly welcome this important also want to add to the enormous work learners per India and the City Centre in general over a number years
but are wonderful
we with all the local residents and how the trust her and her faith in her and I really think that should be put on record because I really
am soon placed by the enormous work she's per annum
it is a good start but I know that the work has been going on for years there's going into this and you mentioned a glass market which is not specifically a festival deleted so we should out that is all year round related as we can put it down to the festival that that's not the case and there has been an enormous amount of work going into addressing the concerns of of the amplification etc and again with the help of Anna a lot that's been addressed in the Royal Mail and certainly in a glass market so we have to acknowledge the work that has gone in over the last few years to address a lot of these points then I am absolutely chuffed to bits that Hunter Square is going to be used in a really positive we
and I know those concerns of it some other parchment between able to spread out groaned Hunter Square will make an enormous difference deference to expedient such are coming along that are male and in all the different end things that are used during that time so I just want to thank officers I think it's a great star I am not a start because it's been going on for years but agreed start for where we go forward from now

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:03:16]

Matheson

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:03:18]

thank you very much indeed and thank you very much for presentation

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:03:21]

and again best wishes to the individual who compile that any slight concern that I really do have this report is that we have a scorecard but we don't have that much data for two thousand seventeen and yet we've got to the very positive responses with no actual data so you know we are unaware of exactly how the trend is actually going it's based on 2 thousand 16 so my question would be when we would be getting the data for two thousand seventeen and actually be able to understand the movement within the Scorecard

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 1:03:51]

without and thank you for your positive comments about the work the anecdotes I think without talking to a directly and mature can answer that one misleading are now working both with festivals Edinburgh them with individual festivals we are on an ongoing data collection exercise but exactly when it would be ready in a comeback I'm not sure so maybe I can just check that with Anna afterwards and update the Committee in due course if that's OK

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 1:04:17]

yes I am I think most of us will have seen the the Scotsman headline I've got in front of me referring to this report Edinburgh can't cope with booming tourism officially Bournes I have to say that's not how I read this report at all I read this report is saying that a more sustainable Ademir can very much cope with booming tourism and that things we need to do to cope with it ABAs paragraph 3 comma 1 3 says use our data so we have more efficient systems more integrated public transport or better pedestrian experience has the same pool would you agree with that that these Scotsman's interpretation of this report is it entirely incorrect and that actually was saying something very different
if you you know if if they took the time to prop read it properly
actions

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 1:05:05]

I think I need to take advice from our Communications colleagues before us

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:05:12]

so much

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 1:05:15]

it wasn't political parties are so different all of my wonderful comments of them said really already politically Councillor Mulherin authors ones about some sort of better the devil in the detail which looks sort of like me to start my sort of a week classroom would be that I'm in terms of three point to zero that you are talking about is there a sort of
to be have a plumbing there obviously necessities so do we have our own sort of coming then and how soon will be

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 1:05:41]

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 1:05:43]

sorry I mean on the barriers yes sorry

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 1:05:45]

here is the German
so when we have two sets of barriers in the city
we have seen the golden national barrier assets which is the rather
as concern attractive in inverted commas but that that the major barriers you see
out just outside this building and areas like Johnson terrace and elsewhere we've also Sir John McNeill who looks after public safety for us what's in there that the culture and service has actually devised and a further set of barriers which we as officers sometimes Christendom at Neil barriers which are
locally designed and they supplement the national barrier assets and national barristers don't belong to us that she that the Home Office then decide where those go and they decided that given them that as was the amount of people on the profile of festivals that the NBA's
should be deployed here and the idea is that we should then develop our own approach
to effectively and mitigation against a hostile vehicle attack another such attacks and and these local solutions
we actually been recently testing with the support of the Home Office to see just how robust they are and those tests have actually been pretty positive and so at some point the national barrier assets will be used need to be used elsewhere and we will need to work with police Scotland to replace those with our own local solutions and that's what we've been developing at the moment and the idea is that there's a bit more flexible and more you we can deploy them here for these events are those for those events is clearly the cost of moving the national barrier assets arm is high and therefore their flexibility is relatively limited to weep in developing our own bespoke approach which actually allows us to be more flexible and deployment

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 1:07:38]

hansard is very quickly I wanted to say as I don't think this is clearly a lot of work has gone into the semi-finals

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:07:48]

just going back to my previous report when we are talking about and tourism and the effect on the city and how an our museums and galleries Urbaser is very evident from this report judging on the various festivals that we have and the take-up in terms of as we split it into the audience brain damage in Edinburgh restless Scotland rest the UK rest of the world the difference between outside of the August festivals and the sort of Hogmanay festivals how much take up there is
in terms of Edinburgh is very very nice pool because the sheer numbers that we are talking about that the concentration very strongly is still based on the summer and store Basin Hogmanay but we have these other additional festivals which are very very well supported by Edinburgh-based not just shoot goes to show the fact that you know people do take part in festivals and bits and pieces and I just wanted in terms of you know our marketing strategy for the future how much emphasis to be placed on these outside festival strand spread out because as often or focus obviously on particular areas as we can see what the take-up but there doesn't that doesn't seem to spread its way out

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 1:08:55]

certainly the festival's on a hot as a whole arm are very well supported as it says here by Edinburgh residents on the idea of programming specific events at different times of the year and in different parts of the city so not everything having to be Councillor Moore in early discussion was talking about George Street and ensure that there is pressure on key city centre streets for key festivals and as no doubt about that and we managed that on an annual basis but the idea of programming events as a say whether it might be in in March or whether it might be in September what the tourism people sometimes called the shoulder months such a move away from those central at
times of the year and at different parts of the city has been a lot of talk for example I think when
shown or from the French festival presented to the Committee she talked about the fringes commitment for example to leaf
indeed there's lots of discussions about other parts of the region not just Edinburgh so both in times of the year and geography getting greater variety is a key challenge moving forward not just in festivals but in the wider tourism agenda

[Cllr David Key (Scottish National Party) - 1:10:09]

thank them yet again really welcome a report that very positive I don't know if this is a potentially equation for the festival's rec regarding thundering hooves but I'm aware that it has talked quite a lot about upskilling m residents or citizens and I think just having been M wrecked had experience of the creative industries myself and especially as a young person I think it's very welcome but I think I would quite like an idea of how it sort of being economically aim support it and I think I would just be nice to see if there is a body of work with around US upskilling young people and our residents and our and our students actually rewarding them and bringing them sustainable jobs because I think you know jobs is known as a very important thing Amos's groups of people work experience and actually rewarding the economically I think is an incredibly important thing

[Cllr David Key (Scottish National Party) - 1:10:56]

for them individually but also as a major say

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 1:11:00]

legal contracts truly as I see if she wanted to sentencing but actually given given
what's going to suggest it was actually to bring something back on the work the festival's due to encourage skills and employment perhaps a future Committee because there's a huge amount of work that they do

[Cllr David Key (Scottish National Party) - 1:11:17]

but now having mentioned June issue much brief word
absolutely
tie
thanks very much for the question
as Paul was saying we do have a range of initiatives across the Eleven major festivals all year round
which ranged from kind creative residencies too
the sorts of entry level i'm opportunities which may be seasonal and give people a foot-in-the-door we are looking
the members of the Committee will know that some were in the process of agreeing with the City and the Scottish government are programme investments and which falls out of our 70th anniversary year last year and that includes skills Development very much as a pillar to allow us to bring together some of those initiatives and create more of a kind of ladder of opportunities for four people and we also started this last summer with some help from prime funding from the Council a festival city volunteers Initiative which was about going out to areas of the city that are perhaps participating last in the festival's than some others and groups that are not able to participate so much because they have barriers like health barriers or a socioeconomic barriers and providing a lot of support kind of bring them in train them up and get them working on customer service around the festivals and some of the Members know
that was so successful last year that we've managed to get Big Lottery funding to scale up and to grow that programme in future years so so I think Paul's writers as a huge range of initiatives going on to to grow on the foundations that we've already got in place to make the skills development potential of the festival's come to fruition

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:13:00]

[Cllr David Key (Scottish National Party) - 1:13:01]

[Cllr David Key (Scottish National Party) - 1:13:02]

they hear much in it I agree that I think for the voluntary sector has a huge part to play in this and I think I'm quite new to the voluntary sector but I'm really again heartened by again the work that you do look reaching out to those people that wouldn't ordinarily have that are able to have that participation so that's great thank you

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:13:21]

but I think that is so much in that they would still be a good
report to a future meeting
Philip

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:13:34]

PH
2 laughter actually formally

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 1:13:42]

propose the amendments would later do that Councillor thanks

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 1:13:44]

year end I was making some my comments earlier but just formally proposing it I think
again just as I say I think it's very helpful report I would really like to see it strengthened I would like to see us and work harder on getting the scorecard in particular aim to be more specific I think that some of the things which are outlined in the amendment aim you know I gave some examples earlier I think that we should be looking at things like the difference between targets versus benchmarks and ceilings and thinking they are we looking to change our visitor ratio or is it something which we are just observing how do we measure whether that statistic when it comes back to us is good or bad weather we need to take any action and would like to see actions against all of the benchmarks to see what are we hoping to do in reserve in response to the figures that we see here when we get the Scorecard and I think that some of the measures that have seen their I don't think there the base measures and I be really happy to work further on that I think I for example
mentioned a poll earlier about the number of complaints maybe not being the best measure in terms of improvement on bin services in that one of the other examples I had was about transport sue just took a few moments earlier in the week to speak to somebody about better measures on pedestrian amenity
and were suggested that pedestrian density would be a better measure him and it's used in other cities to measure the amenity of pedestrians using facilities for example London Underground him and by looking at that and setting a benchmark of the density that we think is acceptable during certain times the year revealed too much better than better measure the impact for example on the history which we all know about during August and so be really keen to work on them things such as that and I think the only other thing that I was going to mention was that Councillor Oslo suggested to me and I I thought was very good suggestion was that m I have put in my wording agreed to continue to work with citizens but I was losing could I a library and say by setting up a residents forum and I don't know if you want to see something on that but then I was just going to ask if I could insert their into the amendment and if that would be agreeable to members

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:16:04]

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:16:06]

for those of us who are have Community Councils that we attend within

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:16:13]

the south of the city centre area a lot that comes out is a huge amount of work that residents do they take part in consultations they take part in all sorts things they they give responses to things and it would be very good in news in in in the in a situation like base that we actually get some positive feedback and we are seen to be as you take on board comments and then we can put it into the same structure that week we regard other things as well so we're seeing both sides is not saying that somebody should have a larger voice in somebody else is just the ability that we can actually have an overall view point of what it's like from the point of view of of the economy and business all the way through to actually what it's like for the residents so we can understand the match-up between the two

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:16:58]

what can be done

[Cllr Karen Doran (Labour) - 1:17:01]

[Cllr Karen Doran (Labour) - 1:17:02]

somewhat
concerned
that because you don't Community Councils have an enormous amount of work already that under great pressure the totally fed up of getting constant am the asked what with this what with the public and I thought previously we talked about them are we forgo the we basically forward to where residents voices could be heard
as a local Councillor and I know some things that residents the one to tell me that completes the don't want to go through the whole drawn-out process of working with the Community Council again to ask them to servi them amser I'm just not understanding afford them to set up another for them to do what is that not what the community council does that not what we do as Community as Councillors listening to our constituents so I'm not quite sure how that would work

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 1:17:53]

if I clarify I am so I think what we were thinking of in this would be on that
in bringing together the information that's on the scorecard quite a lot of it is coming from industry groups or the Festival groups or the Council it it's all coming from those types of bodies it was simply to add the an element of how to be allowed the citizen's voice to come through on that score card and how do we allow that to come through in terms of how it influences how we manage our faced or city so all the services that we hear about in that correspondence where people are coming to us and saying
festivals agreed that the really impacting on my life what are you going to do about this at the next thing it's a way of them focusing there and it wouldn't be to ask him indicates was to do more work it would be to offer them the opportunity to actually feed that information in and I know certainly that all Town Community Council have put in a great deal of work in the last 12 months in bringing together lots of information which they put into a format that they can then give to Councillors and I know that they've been to see some of the conveners with the information and I I think that the particular but others surely will welcome the opportunity to get the information that they are producing trying to feed into Conveners and trying to feed into Council but give them a route to do that so it was more in looking for a vehicle through which they can actually provide the information that they are desperately trying to give to us

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:19:17]

my slight concern was the
fourth film we're just done with The setting up though the working group at their was though that was definitely the purpose of that but of 9 intrinsically against what you say I just my concern would be creating too many groups and or how they would get complicated
councillor

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 1:19:41]

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 1:19:42]

I would echo that but also what Councillor Doran said and as concerts in we were liaising with the county councils and they would certainly be encouraged to bring forward that those those kinds reports and pieces of work that they have done and the knack can feed into the working group without creating yet another body and another
group of people
meeting on a weekly basis
and it is it will be more work for Committee councils and
there were asking a lot of them on with the which is better budgeting things that we're doing and
I don't see the added value that on top of the working group

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:20:32]

I take on board the comments and I think also the fact that I am it would be good to actually ask the community councils and reuse them as an example but I'm not just saying it's because there are statutory body for what I'm suggesting is the fact that we give residents in Edinburgh a chance to actually have an overview and actually feed in to
a process that already exists it's not an onerous task you know we ask and industry bodies to have a look at things and as we are reporting in general and as we're seeing from the papers and and responses from residences they don't feel they have a voice it's just to give residents the opportunity to have a voice doesn't have to go through the Committee Councillor I use them as examples because the restricted your body and they are actually used to reporting information we can we can look at alternatives

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:21:19]

you say something about investigating the feasibility of or
looking at the options for a
citizen Panel
on the basis that we will have something which is the question of her own out a full discussion about what that might look like
secondly yes

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 1:21:43]

thank you I will happily second

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:21:47]

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 1:21:47]

and I would say more if you like

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:21:49]

I think it was agreed that
absent

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:22:01]

it's about the mini-break

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:42:16]

I welcome back

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 1:42:19]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:42:19]

them
I think that takes us on to a point 2

Item 8.2 - Update on Museums and Galleries Transformation – Opening Hours - report by the Executive Director of Place

update on Museums and galleries transformation opening hours and I think
Frank yes
okay
this report details the outcome of the change the opening hours across the Museums and galleries so is back in 1st October 2 thousand 16 we went from six or seven day a week operation to five-day week operation and this was done in direct response to the transformation programme where savings had to be made from staffing a hundred 6 6 thousand pounds however the impact when you're done a line has been a reduction in visitor numbers a decline in income and arguably reputational damage this is because a lot of confusion from others about when we're open women not open particularly on the Royal Mile and particularly for example the Museum of childhood during festivals look concern from this display they couldn't get access
so and also we did a bit capacity compared to analysis as well looking at other people in the city and attractions what they were doing interviews no other Treasury officials have pattern of opening hours
also has been discussion about the tourism and increase in the city we've not really
benefit from that unlike other attractions having said that interestingly to look at Scott Nelson which were responsible took over four to those elusive numbers did go up so it is likely that we continue with existing opening hours we may very well see a continued reduction in numbers continued decline income and arguably reputational damage so the recommendation of this report is to convene to review meetings with officer and councillor representation to review the opening hours are going forward and also to paying a report in March with recommendations
since quite clear

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:44:17]

and questions
as also

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:44:21]

can I just it is my guinea piece thank all the individuals who actually are kept out of this and also all the individuals who run our museum to run our gatherings you run all of it some pieces because they are not frontline individuals that deal with our tourism and deal with people on a daily basis and you know they're a level of dedication and a level of why a petition to what they do is absolutely fantastic in his partially reason of why are museums and art gallery spaces are so while users because people are very very very warmly welcomed by the individuals who were on the front doors who are manning the various elements so I would very much like you to thank

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:44:57]

the individuals who do this for the city is me
equally and I would also commend the way that the report has been brought forward as it serves to any honest and look at them something that's been tried and that we need to do something else so directly
I suppose that agreed voted

Item 8.3 - CCTV Working Group – report by the Acting Head of Safer and Stronger Communities

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 1:45:20]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:45:22]

I to meet volume 3 is to CCTV working Group report

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:45:28]

thank you the background to this report is meeting that was convened just before Christmas by Councillor Ian Campbell which was also attended by the Chief Executive of the Council
and and the meeting confirm the position with CCTV and Edinburgh at the moment m which is basically that The separate systems for public space TV for concierge services transport and Council buildings
the technology is becoming increasingly dated because things move on very very quickly and the public space CCTV was put in a 2 thousand and 2 for example
and it's not up to date in terms of using them on a walk rather than digital and it's based on
fibre cables rather than than M A Wireless
and it should be quite expensive to run and M. The City of Edinburgh Council pays all but a very small amount to all of the CCTV structure and and running
so the discussion was informed by the two reports that are mentioned in my report which is the Fostering Network's consultancy report an Internal Audit report
and it was out of those discussions that are working group was proposed and one that's what we're bringing forward m today the proposal is that it will include all the elected Members who are members of the inaccuracy of the partnership and relevant officers from the Council and representatives from police Scotland so the terms of reference are attached to the report and it is proposed that the work of that m working Group as is reported back here in six months time

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:47:30]

Councillor Campbell you don't allow work on this and bring this forward and if you want to add anything cloud

[Cllr Ian Campbell (Scottish National Party) - 1:47:37]

M yet as them
it was really quite are a big thing that are faced when I took on this role was the replacement CCTV whether the previous report of 17 million pound as being necessary to the police it and then we are working on the basis of being able to replace it for the million pound which has already been ring-fenced and A B were working on air three strategies one is to replace the existing system that we have four 4 m in the streets and open space and CCTV a second one A to look at new premises but places that can actually comedy other am other CCTV like housing and security and maybe even transport so that they could be
actually a cost-cutting exercise but also increasing efficiency of of the systems across the city and the thoughts and Eliot were looking at is a bringing into compliance with the new data protection so the AGM everything's compliant air with that we're going to him towards getting a gold standard on not so that the city and the residents of the city are confident that the CCTV as a protecting them and not being invasive already misused in any way so am we have the sub-groups within the working group and sub groups one led by myself one led by Councillor Brown and one led by Councillor Staniforth and a working consensus as a group and to try and develop something that I believe completely benefit to the city and a I find this
so challenging but I think he exciting A Project but very necessary and am I want to commend the this working group to you that as there were able to take this work forward and A may comedian achievement and from this Committee

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:50:03]

what's on offer

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:50:05]

thank you very much indeed report as somebody said she visited the city or merging I realised you know exactly how much work goes on in this I am very impressed by you know what individuals do with very limited resources I do however have a very very large concern about this we are one of the few Local authorities are actually controlled our CT imaging and I would really like to make sure that we remain in that sort of situation and very hesitant and I am very concerned about using a procurement process to actually serve to change a system because my understanding of the procurement processes as an outside provider etc so I am concerned about how the data will be stored I understand what you say towards protections are like that and I do think we have to be very very very aware of you know a lot of the information and things that we have
you know should should have the highest levels of protection on it and anything that we change the system from a clothes wired system to a wireless system or to cloud-based system does have problems

[Cllr Ian Campbell (Scottish National Party) - 1:51:07]

M
given that I am just just to see that every thing that the Council buys has to go through Procurement suddenly that means buying it soon after by the infrastructure and then we have to buy a contract where someone would maintain the software we wouldn't have access to that software but we actually have a contract that moment with a company that that is Services and manages the
the CCTV they don't have access to a decently help to run the software A all CCTV coverage as automatically wiped after two weeks and so were not storing large amounts of data saw the procurement process has to happen we have to find a best value we have to go through
the correct procedures but it simply the process of buying the equipment

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:52:10]

however I wanted to come in here yes can I just support the Council's point they are that the system as you rightly point out as is currently totally managed by Council officers under democratic control and there's no suggestion that that would change the equipment does however have to be purchased but them whether it's hardware or software was thus no access from outside bodies to what will be contained in it

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:52:45]

we have three recommendations to approve the establishment of a multi agency CCTV working group
to develop a strategy for the upgrade and integration of CCTV services in Edinburgh also to appoint the membership of the CCTV working Group as detailed in Appendix 1 of the report and to request an update on the CCTV CCTV working Group progress in six months time as I agreed
thank you

Item 8.4 - Lauriston Castle Lodge House and Garden – Proposed Lease – report by the Executive Director of Place

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 1:53:14]

I point 4 is reporting Larsson Castle watch House and Garden proposed lease

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:53:22]

so I think it Sir Frank again
this report is seeking approval
for the allocation of the forget-me-not sentry gun drop in centre the loss and Castle Gate House and Garden but also as for approval to allow a 25 year lease to the forgiveness Trust
report the details said it is important that the trust secure 25 years to enable with at least enable them to generate funds capital funds to develop the
developed site took legal opinion has no legal impediment and 4 for a lease that had to be checked on the basis that most in Castle is actually trust am and third recommendation is that reform is referred to the Finance Resources Committee we do feel it's called an extraordinary space out Lawson tells us if this were reflected therapeutic space and we have been working with the year the Trust for some time we believe that were by working pilot should we could create something you actually quite special
if included those from suffering from dementia and their families

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:54:31]

casassa

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:54:32]

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:54:33]

thanking relation frank I am absolutely delighted to see this come forward I think this is a very very positive and way the Council can engage and this is from his community led and community driven it is acknowledged the fact that we do have a very particular issue dementia and being accounts of you know that sits within the North West locality I am so delighted that we've actually supported this it would be really nice to see what we could actually do with this and what we can learn from this to be able to be able to roll out these sorts of things into the other localities as well it should be used as a model that we can actually identify because I strongly believe that this should be something that should be rolled out into other areas as well

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:55:12]

to earn Cassano

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 1:55:15]

[Cllr Claire Miller (Scottish Green) - 1:55:16]

year with support that I think I was really pleased to see this report and M the work that's gone into and I am really looking forward to seeing what results we get from this and I would support the idea that we would look at facilities
in other localities I think that is really important that we have a dementia friendly city

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:55:34]

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 1:55:36]

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 1:55:37]

we need to get better at getting my hand up more quickly because as usual Councillor
G reads my mind and I loved the report authors serving it's really lovely
so wonderful

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:55:46]

I also think it's agreed project and the European people perhaps don't realise the The Lodge House was actually derelict the roof was actually in so this is agreed terms step forward both the Lord show signed for this group
it was agreed

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 1:56:07]

we've already considered main point one slight to sustain two main point to which it is new middle bank update

Item 9.1 - Tourism in Edinburgh - report by the Executive Director of Place

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:56:17]

so Crawford

Item 9.2 - New Meadowbank Update – report by the Executive Director of Communities and Families

with you
barracks converted Justin brief update from myself am identical report that went to the Finance and Resources Committee last week the main aspect of the report is to fight updates on the costs and funding package we are currently estimating as you'll see in the table in the report that the new gap funding however the report does highlight a number of areas where the final aspects of the funding package the to be agreed
therefore we propose that before the main contract for the Sports Centre it works as let that will come back to Finance and Resources
to get final approval for them
happy to take a crash

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:57:04]

crisis comments
agreed
thank you
what do we all the stages tonight
Point the Committee decisions and
okay that takes us on to the motions
and we have Item 10 point 1 which is by cancer
Staniforth and on the Code of Best practice for volunteers and volunteering a consistent on 4th July to move your motion

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 1:57:42]

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 1:57:44]

absolutely this is really just covering a significant gap in our process volunteers and volunteering at the moment we've quite good codes of practices for the Council itself where working on codes of practices for festivals that is coming up soon but when we put something out to procurement we have no senior and we have no current Code of practice in our contracts and this is just really aiming to to plug that gap and make sure that situations like the one we had with Underbelly this new years where there's a lot of confusion and some frustration over there over their volunteer grooming process would be that would never happen again hopefully because we would have a code of practice that will be in all our procurement contracts I would like to make one small change to it
it's Hayes Committee therefore those forward to receive a report within two cycles now I have made it two cycles to give officers plenty of time but the report coming in in tandem fringe guidelines that coming in are coming in within one cycle so I propose reducing that to one cycle just so that they come at the same time so that they are genuinely in tandem so with that Sir proviso I move this motion

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 1:59:00]

though you are seconding it

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:59:03]

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 1:59:04]

I thought you
arrangements but I am more than happy to second time is and I would

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 1:59:16]

say that term this obviously comes from regionally from a question you Ashton and Full Council and a I think there are actually three sets of Gately's coming forward on on on related subjects and the so it is important that these all come forward in tandem under the
that miscommunication between them and although they are different aspects of the same thing about time you know with the proviso that we have to make sure that we're all talking to each other and they all comes forward in the one cycle so therefore with that proviso unhappy stated it was lost

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 1:59:56]

I just want to ask a question in terms of kit for best practice had binding is it

[Cllr Hal Osler (Liberal Democrat) - 2:00:01]

[Cllr Alex Staniforth (Scottish Green) - 2:00:05]

I would imagine that would depend on what the report said I would like it to be quite strictly binding but obviously I don't want to pre-empt the report

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 2:00:19]

Councillor Mitchell

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 2:00:22]

that's why not come as a surprise you can we know some things I would like to ask about
I am wondering about what went to The Housing an economy Committee because they got an interim report based on Castle Cameron's motion and I had no idea and I were only found out because of colleagues telling me
and also bought came as a result of the
survey that was done by the Fringe Society which again didn't get hold about and also because I submitted an amendment or an addendum which was accepted and so just would have been nice to been kept in touch with that and also having watched the webcast about cancer Cameronism motion and interim report
then the points were taken on board from Councillor Staniforth in Sir and there were horses therefore service to include what he is suggesting today and so why is there a need for this separate report

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 2:01:12]

i'd mentioned that a pilot prior to DCAL had had time to think about the end of a cast-iron 41 to answer that but my understanding is that that
the emphasis on this one is contractual
day whilst the emphasis on the other one is on venues
so it's a slight difference in emphasis although obviously guidelines

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 2:01:33]

may be the scene
but that's what sorry if I may come in again that's that's right

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 2:01:37]

that's what I got from watching the webcast when Councillor Cameron turned to I couldn't see who was on the camera but the saying Come on the gentleman's name and that's what we're going to include in their midst tinnitus sort of a code of best practice

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 2:01:53]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 2:01:53]

it is also however the significant that that report would go to housing an economy and I would wish that the that this work come to this Committee because obviously we have a particular remit in this and there are so it will be important to me that when that we get this report

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 2:02:11]

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 2:02:12]

[Mr Paul Lawrence (Executive Director of Place) - 2:02:12]

if I can come very briefly
housing economy effectively it was holding report because a lot of the data that was coming from the fringe survey hadn't been yet made available so it was really just a older report which explained the position as of pave the way for their future report which is building on what the convenience just said it would be my intention if it's OK with Members ready to try and wrap these together so to the both committees are looking at both issues and his unusual effectively take the same report two two two committees but I think it will be probably wrong as it were to deal with half of the issue at Housing and economy in half the issue here and I'd rather if it's OK as it were wrap everything up and to simply allow Members to have have two bites of the cherry one at Housing and economy and one at this Committee so I dealing with things in the round if that's OK

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 2:03:00]

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 2:03:00]

Sydney Anderson clarifies that will get the details from the other reporters okay

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 2:03:07]

we'll be wrapped together by officers
carefully carefully
as those that are acceptable in a

[Cllr Amy McNeese-Mechan - 2:03:17]

then I just wanted to tear particularly welcomed the inclusion of that the unions and volunteer Scotland and the better Than Zero campaign so I think he's doing fabulous work am and just to be pedantic 10 point one point to the final word should be contracts I'm sorry

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 2:03:36]

so that I meet with a seconder for that man might not just

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 2:03:41]

[Cllr Max Mitchell (Conservative) - 2:03:45]

sorry could I have one word nurses 4 am GMT and
russia doing
that never mind we will see what the report says

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 2:03:53]

we'll get to comment again after the report comes out and sadly I bet to spin now
pointed out there in fact
any conclusions that our financial or that they will have to deter Finance Resources
after so
Gerry Adams
so we're them
with those things in my entire way happy to agree the motion
as amended this great
excellent thing

[ Ross Murray (Clerk) - 2:04:29]

[Cllr Donald Wilson (Labour) - 2:04:30]

that concludes formal business thank you very much